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A2675770
September 6th, 2004, 03:57 PM
I've been researching the possibility of turning Freebase Nicotine into a gas form which could be contained.
I have the properties, Melting, boiling, flash, ect, points, But I'm frustrated with the process, I can't seem to find a method that is logical and sufficient,
Any recomondations? Ideas? Exp?

-A26

Bugger
September 7th, 2004, 12:31 AM
Nicotine has a boiling pt. of 246ºC at 730 mm Hg, and melts at under -80ºC. That is a reasonably high temperature to try to get it into the gas phase,but it is attained in smoking cigarettes. It would probably decompose at significantly higher temperatures. It is very soluble in a wide range of solvents. Why do you want to vaporize it?

Bugger

festergrump
September 7th, 2004, 01:54 AM
Perhaps he wants to end his life for not reading the rules before the Mods get to him? It IS a strong poison.

A26, Just what are those melting, boiling, flash, ect. points you found? (DAMN Bugger "buggered me"...) :p It doesn't happen to say on MY cigar box, anyway.

Anyone else noticing a major increase in newbies starting new threads with interesting ideas, yet not going into detail about what they may have already learned from their OWN expirience (or telling what they might have found in their own searches). Call it paranoia or call it careful, I smell idefense and it's fucking foul...

(EDIT: I had mind to delete the latter half of this post but thought better of it. I AM wondering about the newbies, but also wondering where A26 might be going with this.)

#1-N-B-killer
September 7th, 2004, 04:39 AM
That’s a new one, well I do know how to extract it into a between a liquid and gaseous state, but I don’t know how to turn it into a true gas. Nicotine is isolated from tobacco by a variety of methods; some of the most recent include supercritical CO2 extraction, where carbon dioxide is compressed to a supercritical state (between a liquid and a gas) under high pressure, thus becoming a non-polar solvent. When the extraction is done, the CO2 evaporates leaving behind nicotine.

Assume you have a chamber full with tobacco leaves, and connected to it you have another chamber. You fill the empty space of both chambers with CO2, Keeping the temperature slightly above Tc, and you carry on pumping in CO2 to a high pressure.

At a certain point the gaseous CO2 acquires the density of liquid CO2, and is
capable of dissolving some of the constituents of tobacco, e.g., nicotine. If
you wait enough time or if you impose a forced circulation between the two
chambers, after a while, you'll have the same concentrations of solutes all
over the place. If you close the connection between the chambers, the amount of gaseous solution of the tobacco chamber will be smaller than that of the other chamber.

The solutes dissolved in the gaseous CO2 because at that density its action
is like that of a liquid solvent.

What do you do now to recover the solutes you have in the second chamber? You can either slightly cool the gas below Tc, and get some CO2 condensation, which will dissolve the solute, or perhaps better, you can reduce the pressure, remaining supercritical, and the solute will condense out of the gas as a liquid or solid, as the case might be.

Take out the precipitate from the second chamber and repeat the operation as necessary, until you extracted whatever is extractable under these
conditions. You'll also get denicotinized tobacco. ""I’m not sure if there is a way to make nicotine gas but I will research some more. Dose anyone know how much nicotine molecules weigh?

FUTI
September 7th, 2004, 01:13 PM
Supercritical extraction is fine...but almost unattainable to us mortals. Anyway that funny named newbie is undereducated p*nk that will be sp*nk by the mods for asking stupid questions...nicotine free base is vaporised only through water destilation, its boiling point is to high and it would start to decompose if you try normal destilation, maybe vacuum destilation can work, but I doubt. Best purification is through extraction and salt making recristalisation method (from tobacco), but you want free base. Grade please! above 90% or 99,9% by HPLC? What for? Poisoning your grandmother or just plant bugs? Not for E&W I'm sure. If you are trying some junk drug synthesis look some other forum please. And have always in mind that you had been warned few times before you start stupid experiment with substance and matter of whom you obviously have unsufficient knowledge so it is not our fault if you poision yourself.

A2675770
September 7th, 2004, 03:05 PM
The free base is extracted by ether and fractionated in a current of hydrogen and cannot be extracted from tabbaco.
Nicotine has a molecular mass of 162.23.
A ambitious attempt of aprox. 95%-99.95. My intrest in this is Stricktly hypothetical and a question of possibility.
Melting Point: -80 degrees Celsius
Boiling Point: 247 degrees Celsius
Flash Point: 95 degrees Celsius
Auto-Ignition Temperature: 240 degrees Celsius
Explosive Limits: 0.7 - 4 percent, by volume, in air
Vapor Pressure at Room Temperature: 0.006 kPa (as some were specified by Bugger)
Because of the ignition temperature, This is a learge obstacle.

NICOTINOIDS
The nicotinoids are a newer class of insecticides with a new mode of action.
They have been previously referred to as nitro-quanidines,neonicotinyls, neonicotinoids, chloronicotines, and more recently as the chloronicotinyls.
Just as the synthetic pyrethroids are similar to and modeled after
the natural pyrethrins, so too, are the nicotinoids similar to and
modeled after the natural nicotine . Imidacloprid was introduced in Europe and
Japan in 1990 and first registered in the U.S. in 1992. It is currently
marketed as several proprietary products worldwide, e.g., Admire®, Confidor®,
Gaucho®, Merit®, Premier®, Premise® and Provado®. Very possibly it is used in
the greatest volume globally of all insecticides.
Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide, having good root-systemic
characteristics and notable contact and stomach action. It is used as a soil, seed or foliar treatment in cotton, rice cereals, peanuts, potatoes,
vegetables, pome fruits, pecans and turf, for the control of sucking
insects, soil insects, whiteflies, termites, turf insects and the
Colorado potato beetle, with long residual control. Imidacloprid has no effect
on mites or nematodes.
Other nicotinoids include acetamiprid (Assail®), thiamethoxam (Actara®, Platinum®), nitenpyram (Bestguard®), clothianidin (Poncho®,dinotefuran (Starke®) and thiacloprid. U.S. registrations for acetamiprid, thiamethoxam
and thiacloprid were granted in 2002 and clothianidin in 2003.
Mode of action--The nicotinoids act on the central nervous system of
insects, causing irreversible blockage of postsynaptic nicotinergic
acetylcholine receptors (See also Nicotine under the Botanicals).

Idefence!! How dare you fester? I started this thread because theres not to
many subjects left,the guys here have so exquisitely coved the facts I don’t
dare argue with them, I started to wonder if I could make nicotine gas
because I’m curious to see if it’s possible
Fester why would you post if you have nothing to contribute to the
discussion?
Anyone else notice a major increase in post whores lately???
Why don’t you let the mods deal with that,and unless you have a
theory for
making nicotine gas stay out of it please.

-A26

#1-N-B-killer
September 8th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Yes you’re right, nicotine has been and is used in many pesticides for awhile, as well as other chemical agents, but you really need to be clearer in you’re posts. And in you’re research, what research have you done on this?

Could it be possible to maybe bind the nicotine with some other substance, like with other gases? Maybe it could somehow be binded or altered with a lighter than air molecule, I cannot see an answer to this question until you do some serious tests of your own, I’m pretty sure no one has ever tried this one before. It will be a lot of work though, and probably a consumption of time and money, but it is a cool thought!

FUTI
September 8th, 2004, 10:32 AM
I must disapoint you man...mine grandmother used the some kind of boiling tobacco extraction procedure to obtain insecticidal solution for her roses...reading what you had posted makes me very proud to be her grandson, she was a women ahead of her time beating two great scientific forces as US and Japan:). Can you post a some paper or work where it is stated that you can't obtain nicotine free base from tabacco? You have mine full attention now.

festergrump
September 8th, 2004, 01:20 PM
How dare you fester?
How dare I? I dare because I care about this forum and hate to see know-it-all newbs thinking rules don't apply to them and posting their first post ever as a new thread with very little to explain what ground they have covered in their own studies on the topic they deem fit to bring to light. A search found 18 threads besides this one somehow relating to nicotine (at least five of which it was mentioned for it's principals as a deadly poison. It took me all of two seconds to search for and moments to scan the searched threads for those five). So, if you happened to take offense at my previous post, good. Moderators aren't the only ones who sick at the blatant disregard for rules. You're subject to all the rules just like everyone else no matter what you know or can bring forth.

The iDefense thing was a bit much and you have my apology for that. You were not the only one that was directed to, however.

I'm highly attracted to and motivated by this site because of just what it is: A haven for practical knowledge pertaining to explosives and weapons. As our rights diminish the need for such knowledge increases.

With that said, I will leave your discussion alone after asking you one question: What would you plan to do with nicotine in a gaseous form? I realize your thoughts on this are purely hypothetical, but as a weapon would it be practical, implementable, and somewhat expedient (at least in the sense that it can be created and packaged in the privacy of ones own home, shop, or workplace)? Don't let the title of this section fool you. It's chemistry related to E+W, as is the whole forum. The Water Cooler is where nonchalant questions are posted and fit.

BTW, your implication that I am a post whore was kind of funny. I post here very little compared to most. You have my attention, also.

A2675770
September 8th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Thank you Futi, I stand corrected, you cannot extract Freebase nicotine from Cigarettes, Tabacco or the plant itself is deffinatly possible.

Fester I agree with you, This site is without a doubt a great source of knowledge, from what I see, the best and brightest. As that said, You do have the right to defend it.
My first post was lacking, too much, and I regret not writing down the information I had.... I have no excuse for such ignorance.
My use?... The procedure seems difficult and I challenge it, opening possibility for other experiments with the obstacle of a lower ignition temperature then the boiling temperature. I do believe that it could be a practical, cheap, and efficient small chemical weapon.

James
September 8th, 2004, 02:43 PM
After a quick search of two webpages, I found the following. A) appearently Nicotone will explode (http://193.78.190.200/smokersclub/nicotine.html) before it boils. B) freebase Nicotine is only absorbed (http://www.quit.org.au/quit/FandI/fandi/c11s2.htm) through the lining of the mouth. Note however that the sites refferenced are not impartial.
I think if I were going to try something similar, I would aerosolize a Nicotine salt. Probably Nicotine HCl (H2SO4 is a reccomended salt). I think that freebase Nicotine would shift the PH of whoever happened to breathe it in (barring the omnipresent buffers). I also recall that we have discussed Nicotine before (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2568).
[edit: added thoughts fixed a bug]

FUTI
September 9th, 2004, 07:59 AM
In theory you could kill a man with nicotin content of one cigarette since that molecule bind to a neuron and muscle receptors so it act similar to chemical weapons. I think that extraction and litle pH adjusting and playing around with extraction again can give you very good result for a home made product. If you use some of the info posted here and play with cristalisation and water destilation you could make veeeery pure compound. Free base form is highly impractical since most amine are easily oxidated in this form so the shelf-life of it is sh*t (that is why hydrogen in the post you mentioned I think incorrectly since it is not the other partitioning phase but oxidation preventioning aid - usable only to large scale). That is one of the reason why most of this compounds come as salt solution for inhalation or injection (depending of the activity). If it come as salt it penetrate in body slower through mucous membrane but it will make a balance that will enable it's absorption (it will work for nicotine since it has high activity). If you take some other lower activity substance you will have to inject it to work. Still there is no link or work that I asked you for.

nbk2000
September 9th, 2004, 07:30 PM
The Hive bees have supposedly been dinking around with fluorination of cocaine alkaloids, to greatly increase the potency, 40x or more.

Nicotine is an alkaloid, though a different type, and could perhaps be amiable to such molecular tweaking.

As the lethal dose of nicotine is ~3mg, if you made it 10x more toxic, that'd be .3mg per adult, which is on order of VX. :)

kingspaz
September 9th, 2004, 08:31 PM
http://www.toxicology.lsuhsc.edu/clinphar/din/nicotine.htm

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/NI/nicotine.html

http://www.fullersysteminc.com/products/fulex_nicotine.htm

I thought 3mg wasn't quite right after remembering the approximate amount in cigarettes.

The above links provide some information as to nicotines toxicity. If it could be made 10x more toxic, as nbk said, it would still be a cunt of a poison!

FUTI
September 11th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Thanks for a details kingspaz!
Well you see that mine memory is not that badly damaged. And you are right it is not such a strong poison because it work as competitive ligand with other neurotransmitters, not like sarin and other holinesterase inhibiting substance. Rest of my story is about spreading the substance. I think some of those smoke-prevetioning patches that suppose to help you abandon that bad habit contain the nicotine (you now one step at the time) so penetration is posible through skin. I wonder does some of those tricks to make your subtance lipid soluble through (don't shot me if I made mistake) pamoic (or was it pamidronic?) acid salt formation can improve its skin/mucous membrane penetration? In case you A26 have wish (in your dreams of course) to kill some one with this substance you will have to go to injex thread:). And you can be sure this is not undetectable way of killing someone that is not an insect.