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knowledgehungry
September 9th, 2003, 09:57 PM
Ok everyone here has stressed just how important it is to be careful with AP, but I feel that i need to reitirate the importance of treating it with EXTREME caution. Andrey Kolyada an associate of mine is now lacking 2 fingers on his left hand due to our fickle friend, the AP detonator and the main charge he was inserting the det into exploded, he suffered a broken rib due to a piece of shrapnel hitting him. He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off. This relates to the "Fuck Im done" thread but i felt it deserved its own topic, maybe there should be a sticky thread with every known accident involving AP we have. I really dont want this to happen to anyone else. Fortunately he had the presence of mind to get rid of his hardrive and all incriminating evidence (because there was none of course ;))before he called an ambulance, so no charges are being pressed and he is currently in my organic chemistry class.

0EZ0
September 9th, 2003, 10:08 PM
Poor kid. But really hammering an AP det into a main charge? It's not surprising that he got an ass whomping. Lucky it was not any worse.

Good to hear that he had the sense to make sure that his computer security was in place. Did he completely remove the hard-drive from his computer? Or did he wipe it using a program? It would be interesting to know.

My regards to your 'associate'.

knowledgehungry
September 9th, 2003, 10:11 PM
He physically removed it.

ALENGOSVIG1
September 9th, 2003, 10:36 PM
He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off

I have absolutely no sympathy for this kid. People like this are DANGEROUS to themselves and others, and definately shouldnt be playing with explosives.

I mean, i would never treat ap like that in my wildest dreams. I hold dets by the fuse/wires while carrying them and treat them very grently.

User Name
September 9th, 2003, 10:55 PM
remember that not all AP is the same. test each batch for sensitivity to presure, impact, and ability to DDT. my AP i have right now is impresively unsensative. takes a nice blow from a hammer(enbough to fuckin HURT a finger.) how damn hard was he hitting it and why was he?

nbk2000
September 9th, 2003, 11:59 PM
It's amazing that a person could have the presence of mind to dispose of their HDD after having their fingers blown off, but not have had the good sense to NOT HIT A DETONATOR WITH A HAMMER, causing the loss of said digits in the first place. :confused:

How could you NOT know that doing so would be a VERY BAD idea? You PUSH, not WHACK, a detonator into place.

As such, this guy is a darwin award candidate.

Also, he got a busted rib from where a piece of shrapnel hit him? Must have been a mighty weak explosive, and poorly built at that. Anything I've built would have either blown me into pink mist or the shrapnel shred me to kibble, not busted a rib and nip off a few fingers.

EP
September 10th, 2003, 01:11 AM
Here is another AP-related accident people should see:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum19/HTML/004355.html

You might say "haha, somebody from totse got hurt!" but I think it's important to try and figure out why WET AP putty detonated like it did to try and keep it from happening in the future.

DBSP
September 10th, 2003, 02:45 AM
I've only got three things to say:

1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.

2) Attempting such a thing is mostly the result of lacking knowledge. Had he known that it doesn't take more than one AP crystal detonationg to set the whole charge off he might not have chosen to hammer it into the main charge.

3) Had he done what everyone should do before starting off with explosives, namely gaining knowledge by reading averything there is to read on the subject before attempting it himself he would still have all his fingers present.

T_Pyro
September 10th, 2003, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by DBSP

1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.



You said it.
I'm curious, though- what did your "associate" attribute this accident to? Did the cops get called in at all?

Al Koholic
September 10th, 2003, 01:53 PM
In my book, putting any amount of faith into certain explosives (IE: organic peroxides, NI3NH3, etc) is begging for trouble. The probability of having an accident, even without apparent cause, increases drastically as the sensitivity of the explosive rises just a bit. Honestly I would love to see everyone stop making things like AP, HMTD and the like.

The problem is that the chemicals are soooooooooooo easy to get, you need next to NO specialized equipment, you don't have to know anything about chemistry (see above totse story) to come up with some damned stupid ideas about factors affecting explosive sensitivity, ad nauseum. People want to see that bang right away without taking the maannnnnnnny small steps (in a better direction) they should have been taking. Making acetone peroxide is like telling the world that you are too impatient to bother with anything else (much less learning) and need to have your "explosive fix" this instant.

I just hope someone currently thinking that AP is "the shit!" will stop, think about it, read, then start buying the equipment they need to make much safer things. Putting that kind of slow, meticulous, time and effort will lead you on a safer path in the long run.

Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.

Nevermore
September 11th, 2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Al Koholic

Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.

Well, i do not agree completely, AP is evil as much as HMTD, as much as mercury fulminate and so on..primaries are really nasty things, but their sensitivity is needed, AP being a peroxide is sensitive and sometime can go into self decomposition, even if i've never experienced (fortunately). But, thinking about other primaries, most of them are not well explained like this one, this one requires no professional equipment, doesn't undergo in dangerous reactions during preparation and uses cheap and easy to find ingredients...
Beside that, you can find information about it almost everywhere... what about the other primaries? i've had hard time finding info about the double salts, and much more bout Hydrazine compounds...most of them are hard to prepare or require controlled ingredients, not easy to find chemicals, professional equipment, or have a so bad yeld...
It could be good if it was available a list of primaries ordered by sensitivity, maybe explaining about the reactions too..
i've been not able to find it, and even in the most complete list i know (megalomania web) there are lotsa of missing ones..is almost impossible to write a complete list, but i wonder if a list of the most common ones is available..

knowledgehungry
September 11th, 2003, 09:38 PM
The major problem with AP is that it is extremely unpredictable, sometimes its insensitive as a drill sergeant other times its like my girl during PMS.

kingspaz
September 12th, 2003, 04:13 AM
and that is what catches people out. aswell as people who think they know everything making large batches because its easy. silver double salts isn't much harder to make than AP. its a much better initiator and has quite similar sensitivity to lead azide apart from its flame sensitivity which is much higher. this in my opinion makes it the ideal primary for us. i think people often shy away from it because they don't understand the scraps of info they find. i agree that it is very hard to find any good info if any. federoff vol 1 is the ONLY source of useful information i have found.

Al Koholic
September 12th, 2003, 12:27 PM
I'm not a silver double salt buff but I believe that among primaries, DDNP is by far the best way to go. As far as primaries are concerned it has low sensitivity to impact, flame, and must be confined tighly for any quantity less than about 5 grams to make the DDT. I would love it if people here would use it more but theres always the easy way....

I am not going to even attempt to point out that hammering on a cap with DDNP would have resulted in any different circumstances however. You just dont hammer on a cap, period.

PasstheDutch
September 12th, 2003, 05:44 PM
Why don't you SEARCH and read the thread called "AP Beginners guide" that would answer all your questions?

Also, AP Putty is old, so old we don't talk about it anymore, having moved onto better things. Try SEARCHING the net for information about it, eh? :p

serene
September 12th, 2003, 07:04 PM
Its replies like this that really scare me into not wanting to progress onto explosives i havent worked with before. Although this is the case I know that if i look in the archieves then i have a wealth of information that will hopefully guide me through each process safely.
From posts like this i can see the dangers of many explosives when care and respect are not taken into account. I have a friend who immediatly after making Black Powder wanted to move straight onto RDX. Although not fully criticising what he wants to do, In my mind it is plain stupid to move onto something as high as that.

All i can say is that 'ignorance is not bliss'.

Craig
PS: Is this bad for a first post or is this an improvment to the usual newbie 'how do i make BP' sort of thread.

knowledgehungry
September 12th, 2003, 10:57 PM
Actually RDX is a great explosive, if you can make it. AP is far more dangerous than RDX, and most primaries, just beacuase something is more difficult to make does not mean it is more dangerous. Also if that was a bad post we would let you know, your asking that question makes you look like a little kid searching for approval, and its kinda annoying, to me at least.

Cyclonite
September 13th, 2003, 08:56 AM
Not a bad post but not informative- At least your not talking about setting off some NG with a blackcat. If you can follow directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as you ALWAYS respect the explosive. I love this hobby/work but if you become complacent it will kill or injure you at some point in time. Its important to be comfortable but not complacent with making it as nervousness gives you a higher chance to fuck up, just don't forget what it can do to you in less than a second you life is over.....If you follow these basic rules than there's little chance of injury or death

PasstheDutch
September 15th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Cyclonite
If you can follow directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as you ALWAYS respect the explosive.

True that cyclo, i think that its in some way the same like firearms, you treat it as if it was loaded (respect). I might be a newby but i Have read a great deal about this matter (as well on this forum as in my books) and i certainly know better then to hit a det with a hammer.
I think its very good these things are discussed too because this way people can learn from other peoples mistakes without the messy side-effect of the empirical method:D.

I aint sayin' nothing about AP here, i've found another place ;)

dutch....

kingspaz
September 15th, 2003, 05:31 PM
dutch, stop post whoring. that post was useless. its provides no information/advice so is useless.

from now on think before you post and think long and hard about it. you're walking very close to the edge of the cliff that is HED.